The conversation begins with Anastasia’s metaphor for intersectionality: each identity as a street or intersection that adds complexity to the road of a person’s life. Rather than viewing identity as a single category, Anastasia describes intersectionality as the layered interaction of race, sexuality, socioeconomic status, culture, disability, chronic pain, geography, and lived experience. Bridger and Anastasia explore how this matters clinically because simplified assumptions about identity can prevent therapists from truly meeting the client in front of them.

Anastasia shares about growing up across multiple countries, including Indonesia and the United Arab Emirates, and how her early life shaped her understanding of culture, belonging, and difference. Having spent much of her childhood outside the United States, she reflects on the question “Where are you from?” and how difficult it can be to answer when identity is shaped by movement, cultural immersion, and many overlapping homes.

The conversation then turns toward invisible identities and the difference between what is chosen, what is given, and what is allowed to be. Anastasia reflects on queerness, sexuality, chronic pain, perfectionism, and the ways some identities become difficult to name when the surrounding environment does not make enough room for them. Bridger and Anastasia discuss how therapy can become a space where clients begin to recognize, name, and reclaim parts of themselves that may have been minimized, hidden, or disallowed.

Anastasia also shares the story of becoming a therapist, beginning with her original desire to pursue research and academia, her work in crisis services, and her eventual movement into trauma therapy and EMDR. She describes her crisis work as a place where she learned the power of slowing down, sitting with another human being, and offering safety without rushing toward solutions.

A major portion of the episode explores EMDR therapy with complex trauma. Anastasia reflects on her experience of EMDR basic training, the usefulness of the Adaptive Information Processing model, and the realization that standard protocol alone is often insufficient for clients with developmental trauma, dissociation, chronic shame, and complex relational histories. Bridger and Anastasia discuss the importance of extended resourcing, building adaptive networks, and honoring the pace required for complex trauma work.

Anastasia describes how she integrates parts work into EMDR, especially by attending to protectors and allowing those parts to help shape the pace and sequence of trauma processing. Rather than forcing the client into a rigid treatment structure, she emphasizes the need to “go with” the client’s system — honoring imagery, sensation, color, thought, dissociation, and the unique ways trauma communicates through the body and imagination.

The episode also includes a powerful reflection on chronic pain as an invisible identity. Anastasia shares her experience of living for over a decade with debilitating headaches and migraines before finally being believed by a provider who recognized the source of her pain. She and Bridger discuss how chronic pain shapes identity, self-understanding, relational life, and the ability to show up authentically. This leads into a broader reflection on the clinical importance of believing clients when they describe their own experience.

Toward the end of the conversation, Bridger and Anastasia explore how therapists can begin practicing intersectional humility. Anastasia suggests that trauma-informed care means entering the room with awareness that something important may be present even when it has not yet been named. This includes trauma, but it also includes invisible identities, minority identities, shame, pain, and meanings the client may not yet feel safe enough to disclose.

The conversation closes with a discussion of meaning-making, assumptions, monogamy, polyamory, relational expectations, diversity education, and the need for therapists to deconstruct their own definitions. Anastasia invites clinicians to ask clients what their words, values, identities, and relationships mean to them rather than assuming shared definitions. Bridger connects this with the therapeutic need to create an authentic meeting place where client and therapist can build meaning together.

Key Themes

Intersectionality in therapy

Identity is not singular. Each client and therapist enters the room with overlapping experiences of culture, privilege, marginalization, history, body, pain, sexuality, belonging, and relational meaning.

Invisible identities

Anastasia highlights how identities such as chronic pain, queerness, cultural displacement, and internalized shame may deeply shape a person’s life even when they are not immediately visible.

Power in the therapy room

Power is not something therapists can opt out of. It is present in the room through language, assumptions, clinical models, cultural norms, and the therapist’s posture toward the client.

EMDR and complex trauma

The episode explores why complex trauma often requires more flexibility, resourcing, pacing, and clinical humility than a rigid application of the standard protocol can provide.

Resourcing and adaptive networks

For clients with developmental or complex trauma, resourcing is not a quick preliminary step. It may be the core work of building new regulatory capacity over time.

Parts work and EMDR

Anastasia discusses using parts work to honor protectors, barriers, and internal systems before moving into trauma processing.

Chronic pain and identity

The conversation frames chronic pain not only as a physical experience, but as an identity-shaping reality that can affect selfhood, relationships, work, and embodiment.

Clinical curiosity and humility

Therapists are invited to ask, “What does that mean to you?” rather than assuming that words like family, healing, power, safety, or love mean the same thing for every client.

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Deb shares her decades of experience integrating attachment theory with EMDR therapy, including practical ways therapists can work with children, parents, families, and adults carrying unresolved developmental trauma.

We discuss:

• Why attachment trauma often lives beneath symptoms

• How EMDR can help heal early relational wounds

• Working with children using EMDR

• Family therapy + EMDR integration

• Resourcing trust, safety, and connection

• Parents as part of the healing process

• Parts work / ego states in EMDR

• How therapists become corrective emotional experiences

• Why the therapeutic relationship still matters deeply in trauma work

Deb also shares stories from training with Francine Shapiro in the early days of EMDR and how the field has evolved over time.

If you're an EMDR therapist, trauma therapist, counselor, psychologist, or simply fascinated by healing relationships, this conversation is packed with wisdom.

Learn more about Deb Wesselmann through her website: https://debrawesselmann.com/

Learn more about training and professional development opportunities with Beyond Healing through our website: connectbeyondhealing.com

DETAILED SHOW NOTES

Introduction

Bridger and Jen open the episode by discussing their upcoming EMDR Basic Trainings, hybrid learning model, consultation opportunities, and their emphasis on relationship-centered EMDR training.

Meet Deb Wesselmann

Deb shares her background as:

• Former school teacher

• Therapist for 35+ years

• EMDR clinician since the mid-1990s

• Co-founder of the Attachment and Trauma Center in Nebraska

• Longtime specialist in attachment, trauma, adoption, children, and family healing

Her journey into therapy began through witnessing the unmet emotional needs of children in school settings.

Early EMDR with Francine Shapiro

Deb reflects on training directly with Francine Shapiro when EMDR was still considered “experimental.”

She discusses:

• Why she was initially skeptical

• Her powerful practicum experience

• How EMDR differed from hypnosis

• Why EMDR felt safer, gentler, and more effective for trauma treatment

Why Attachment and EMDR Fit So Well

Deb explains how EMDR naturally supports attachment healing because it helps process:

• mistrust

• abandonment wounds

• relational fear

• unresolved grief

• abuse memories

• developmental trauma

She emphasizes that attachment styles are shaped through experience—not fixed identity.

What Didn’t Happen Matters Too

One of the most powerful moments of the episode:

Healing is not only about processing what happened to clients...

It is also about grieving and repairing what never happened:

• protection

• soothing

• attunement

• nurture

• safety

• emotional co-regulation

Parts Work / Ego States in EMDR

Deb and the hosts discuss:

• ego states

• parts language

• multiplicity of self

• internalized child parts

• wounded protector parts

They explore how parts work deepens EMDR treatment, especially with complex trauma.

Deb’s Integrative Family EMDR Model

Deb outlines her step-by-step model for working with children and families:

Phase 1:

Parent psychoeducation and case conceptualization

Helping parents understand:

• “This is not a bad child.”

• “This is a wounded child in survival mode.”

Phase 2:

Family preparation and regulation work

Including:

• body regulation exercises

• window of tolerance education

• playful nervous system work

• emotional literacy

Phase 3:

Attachment-focused EMDR resourcing

Examples:

• parent-child connection exercises

• messages of love

• soothing touch

• bilateral stimulation paired with relational safety

• healing the “little one inside”

When Parents Are the Barrier

Deb speaks honestly about difficult cases where caregivers are emotionally unsafe, resistant, or abusive.

The hosts discuss how therapists may need to pivot toward:

• supporting the child directly

• grief work

• coping strategies

• becoming a safe relational template

The Therapist as Attachment Resource

A major theme of the conversation:

The therapeutic relationship itself becomes healing data.

Bridger discusses inviting clients to:

“Take my voice with you.”

Meaning:

• internalize compassion

• remember safety

• borrow regulation

• carry supportive relational memory into distress

This is a beautiful section for therapists working with complex trauma.

Why This Episode Matters

This conversation reminds us that EMDR is not merely protocol.

It is also:

• relational

• developmental

• embodied

• attachment-informed

• deeply human

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If you were trained to think of interweaves as something you “pull out of a list” when a client gets stuck, you’re not alone. But what if interweaves aren’t about saying the right thing… and instead about understanding what the system needs next?

In this episode, we explore:

• What interweaves are actually doing in the brain and nervous system

• Why “cognitive interweaves” are only part of the story

• How stuckness in EMDR often reflects deeper relational and developmental patterns

• The difference between interrupting processing vs. supporting movement

• How to move from rigid scripts to relational, somatic, and intuitive interweaves

• Why some interweaves increase distress—and why that’s not a failure

We walk through core categories from Francine Shapiro's EMDR: Basic Principles, Protocols, and Procedures (responsibility, safety, and choice), while also expanding into a more integrative framework that includes:

• Somatic interweaves

• Affective interweaves

• Relational and resource-based interweaves

You’ll also hear real clinical reflections on:

• Why “I’m confused…” doesn’t always land

• How metaphor, imagery, and even humor can unlock stuck processing

• When to stay out of the way… and when your presence matters most

Ultimately, this conversation reframes interweaves not as a technique—but as a relational intervention grounded in attunement, timing, and case conceptualization.

If you’ve ever found yourself thinking:

“What do I say right now?”

This episode will help you shift toward:

“What does my client’s system need right now?”

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In this episode of Notice That, we sit down with perinatal mental health specialist Bethany Warren to explore how EMDR therapy can be used safely and effectively with pregnant and postpartum clients—and why so many clinicians have been taught otherwise.

Together, we unpack:

• The most common myths about EMDR in pregnancy (and what the research actually says)

• Why “just resourcing” may unintentionally limit healing

• How attachment wounds, identity shifts, and grief show up in the perinatal period

• The difference between trauma and the deeper layers of loss

• How EMDR helps untangle both present-day distress and long-standing relational patterns

We also explore the emotional reality of becoming a parent—the unexpected grief, the vulnerability of attachment, and the ways our own histories come alive in this stage of life.

This conversation is both clinically rich and deeply human—an invitation to rethink how we approach trauma, healing, and development in one of the most transformative seasons of life.

Whether you’re an EMDR clinician or simply someone navigating parenthood, this episode offers a powerful lens into what it means to heal while becoming.

Connect with Bethany Warren:

• Website: https://bethanywarrenlcsw.com/

• Perinatal EMDR Training (HAP): https://www.traumarecoveryhap.org/course/warren-perinatal-clients

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In this episode of Notice That: An EMDR Podcast, Bridger and Jen sit down with psychologist and EMDR consultant Dr. Nirit Gordon to explore the profound developmental, attachment-based, and trauma-related shifts that occur during the perinatal period. Drawing from feminist theory, attachment research, evolutionary anthropology, and clinical EMDR practice, this conversation reframes the transition to parenthood as a sensitive developmental stage comparable to adolescence — a time marked by identity reorganization, heightened emotional activation, relational stress, and the resurfacing of unresolved attachment wounds.

Together, we explore:

• Why perinatal mental health is one of the most under-recognized areas in trauma treatment

• How attachment memories and developmental trauma networks reactivate during pregnancy and early parenting

• The concept of matrescence and its implications for case conceptualization Why fathers and partners undergo neurobiological and hormonal shifts during early parenting

• How modern parenting culture conflicts with evolutionary caregiving needs

• The myth of constant parental attunement and what attachment research actually shows

• Birth trauma and systemic gaps in trauma-informed obstetric care Using babies as resources in EMDR therapy

• The clinical importance of including perinatal experiences in Phase 1 history taking How therapists can support identity transformation during early parenthood

This episode invites clinicians to expand their understanding of trauma, development, and relational memory — and to consider the perinatal period not simply as a life event, but as a critical neurobiological and psychological window for therapeutic intervention. Whether you work directly with parents or not, this conversation offers a powerful lens for understanding how attachment, trauma, and identity evolve across the lifespan.

To follow Nirit's work, check out her website at niritgordonphd.com and her training offerings at touchstoneinstitute.org

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In this deeply reflective episode of Notice That, Bridger and Jen are joined by therapist and trainer Jessica Downs for an intimate conversation exploring the inner life of therapists, professional identity, and the personal work that inevitably emerges beneath clinical practice.

Together, they explore the hidden motivations that draw people into helping professions, the illusion of the “next training” as a solution to therapeutic stuckness, and the moment many therapists encounter when professional development turns into personal reckoning.

This episode moves beyond theory into experience, as Jessica guides a live experiential exercise inviting listeners to connect with younger parts of themselves — demonstrating how EMDR principles, ego state work, and imagination can foster integration and self-compassion.

Themes explored include:

• Why therapists often chase new modalities or trainings

• The relationship between burnout and unresolved inner dynamics

• Countertransference and the therapist’s personal history

• Ego states and parts work through an EMDR lens

• The role of suffering in human experience

• Individuation, identity, and professional evolution

• Healing as wholeness rather than symptom elimination

This conversation is slower, more inward, and intentionally reflective — an invitation to pause, notice, and reconnect with the parts of yourself that brought you into this work in the first place.

In This Episode, We Discuss

• The unconscious reasons therapists become therapists

• When “helping people” isn’t the whole story

• Capitalism, continuing education culture, and therapist insecurity

• Internal imagery and symbolic work in healing

• Parenting, therapy, and mirrors of the self

• Jessica’s “spotlighting” ego state exercise (follow along included)

• The La Loba myth and reclaiming lost parts of self

About Our Guest — Jessica Downs

Jessica Downs is a trauma therapist, EMDR clinician, and co-founder of Iris Training Collective. Her work integrates EMDR, ego state approaches, symbolism, and depth psychology to help therapists reconnect with authenticity and wholeness in both personal and professional development.

Resources & Links

• Iris Training Collective

• Live Well Counseling Center (Grand Junction, CO)

• Notice That Podcast

• Beyond Healing trainings and consultation opportunities

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In this episode of Notice That, Bridger and Jen are joined by Laurel O’Neal Thornton, EMDR clinician, consultant, and educator, for a rich conversation on the neuroscience of resilience and what it actually looks like in EMDR therapy.

Drawing from neuroscience, EMDR, and years of clinical experience, Laurel reframes resilience as an innate human capacity—one that exists even in the presence of trauma, depression, neurodivergence, and chronic stress. Together, we explore how shame disrupts resilience, why meaning-making matters, and how EMDR can foster regulation, integration, and adaptability without chasing perfection or symptom elimination.

This episode is especially resonant for clinicians working with complex trauma, neurodivergent clients, chronic depression, or anyone feeling stuck in rigid models of “healing.”

✨ In This Episode, We Explore:

• Why resilience is adaptation, not toughness or “bouncing back”

• How EMDR naturally supports resilience through plasticity, regulation, and integration

• The role of shame as a major disruptor of innate resilience

• Why healing doesn’t mean never being triggered again

• How meaning, purpose, and relational connection show up in resilience research

• Working creatively within the EMDR protocol—especially Phase 2 and Phase 8

• Supporting neurodivergent and highly intelligent clients in EMDR

• Why spontaneity, play, and pattern-breaking matter in therapy

• What it really means to “trust the brain” in EMDR

🧩 Key Takeaways for Clinicians

• Resilience exists before healing—and therapy helps clients reconnect to it

• EMDR doesn’t fix broken brains; it helps glitching systems reintegrate

• Decreasing shame may be one of the most powerful therapeutic interventions

• Creativity and flexibility are not deviations from EMDR—they’re part of its design

• Healing is about faster recognition, quicker recovery, and greater self-understanding

👩‍🏫 About Our Guest

Laurel O’Neal Thornton is an EMDR clinician, consultant, educator, and practice owner who specializes in the neuroscience of trauma, resilience, and neurodivergence. She trains and consults clinicians internationally and is passionate about helping therapists integrate neuroscience in ways that are practical, humane, and deeply respectful of the client’s nervous system.

Learn more about Laurel’s work at Whole Brain Solutions

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We’re joined by Cassie Krajewski, LCSW, AASECT-certified sex therapist, EMDRIA Approved Consultant, and co-founder of Iris Training Collective. Cassie brings a deeply integrative lens to sexuality—one that moves far beyond technique and into conceptualization, embodiment, and healing.

Together, we explore how sexual health is not a “specialty concern,” but a core dimension of human wellness—and how EMDR therapy offers a powerful, attuned framework for addressing sexual shame, desire, pleasure, and trauma.

In this conversation, we explore:

• Why sexual health is a birthright, not a performance metric

• How culture, religion, and shame disrupt embodiment and desire

• The role of pleasure as a healing mechanism, not a reward

• Why many therapists avoid sex—and how that avoidance shows up clinically

• Integrating sex therapy principles into EMDR case conceptualization

• Creative and embodied resourcing for sexual trauma and low desire

• Consent, curiosity, and reclaiming agency in sexuality

• How therapists can reflect on their own relationship to sex and pleasure

This episode is an invitation—to therapists and humans alike—to pause, notice, and gently question the stories we’ve inherited about sexuality… and to consider what healing might look like if pleasure were allowed back into the room.

Free Resources on Cassie's website at inneratlastherapy.com

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A Conversation with Arilda Surridge, LMFT

What happens when EMDR moves beyond the individual—and into the relationship itself?

In this episode of Notice That, Bridger and Jen sit down with Arilda Surridge, LMFT, author and EMDR clinician, to explore how EMDR can be ethically, safely, and powerfully integrated into couples therapy. Arilda shares a clear, grounded framework for working with two nervous systems in the room—without deviating from EMDR fidelity—and offers concrete clinical examples that bring this work to life.

This conversation goes far beyond theory. Together, we walk through:

• When couples EMDR is and is not appropriate

• How to assess whether a trauma is individual, shared, or relational

• What simultaneous EMDR reprocessing actually looks like in practice

• How compassion, accountability, and repair emerge through bilateral stimulation

• Why tools alone often aren’t enough for deeply dysregulated couples

Arilda also shares clinical wisdom from her work with couples navigating car accidents, attachment injuries, guilt and shame, trust ruptures, and relational enactments—highlighting how EMDR can help partners move from reactivity to empathy.

This episode is especially valuable for:

• EMDR therapists working with couples

• Clinicians navigating attachment trauma and relational enactments

• Therapists curious about maintaining EMDR fidelity in non-traditional applications

• Anyone interested in how trauma lives between people—not just within them

About the Guest

Arilda Surridge, LMFT is a licensed marriage and family therapist, EMDR clinician, and the owner of Wellness Counseling Inc. She specializes in integrating EMDR into couples therapy while maintaining fidelity to the eight-phase protocol. Arilda is the author of a practical, clinician-focused book on EMDR for couples and offers professional trainings on this emerging area of practice.

Find out more about her practice here: https://wellnesscounselinginc.com/about/

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This episode isn’t about teaching a specific technique. It’s about humor, authenticity, and why laughter belongs alongside depth in trauma work. We talk about how Jennifer’s platform grew, what it’s like navigating social media as a therapist, handling negative comments, and why being real often connects more than being polished.

We also explore EMDR in everyday practice—ritual, intention, parts work, and the familiar client experience of “I don’t know why this works… but it does.”

Connect with Jennifer Ann Counseling

Instagram / TikTok: @JenniferAnnCounseling

Free resources available via her bio

If this episode resonates, please subscribe, leave a review, and share it with a colleague who needs a reminder that therapy can be human, playful, and deeply meaningful.

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Together, they dive into:

• How Arielle’s early training in somatic psychology shaped the way she learned and practices EMDR

• Why the body scan and somatic check-ins are not just “boxes to tick,” but core guides for pacing, target selection, and resolution

• Polyvagal theory’s view of how trauma gets “tagged” in the nervous system—both in external cues and internal sensations

• What to do when clients say, “I don’t feel anything in my body” and how even that response is meaningful data

• The myth that SUDs “should always go down,” especially with dissociative and complex trauma presentations

• Arielle and Barb Maiberger’s “golden nugget practice” and why we shouldn’t wait for a SUD = 0 to install and future-template meaningful shifts

• Therapist embodiment: using our own nervous system as an instrument for attunement, pacing, and repair

Arielle also shares about her Somatic EMDR trainings through BodyLab, her therapist retreats in Sedona and Costa Rica, and her Beyond Trauma nervous system care retreats, including an immersive experience in South Africa that combines yoga, nervous system education, and observing animals in the wild.

You’ll hear practical language, case examples, and flexible ways to honor EMDR’s structure while staying deeply relational, embodied, and responsive to the nervous system in front of you.

Learn more about Dr. Arielle Schwartz:

• Website (events, retreats, trainings): resilienceinformedtherapy.com

• Website (blog, yoga, additional resources): drarielleschwartz.com

Check out her card deck that integrates nature photography with quotes from The Post-Traumatic Growth Guidebook—a powerful tool for helping clients locate themselves in their healing process and set intentions for EMDR and somatic work.

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Together, they discuss:

• What neurofeedback actually is—beyond the buzzwords

• How brainwave training mirrors internal states and supports regulation

• Why neurofeedback can open doors when EMDR alone feels “stuck”

• How clinicians can partner with neurofeedback providers

• The developmental trauma connection: attachment, arousal, and brain-based interventions

• A powerful case example of a child whose system finally found calm

• Practical uses for neurofeedback in resourcing, closure, and state stabilization

Leigh shares candidly about her own learning curve, what it’s like to bring neurofeedback into an EMDR practice, and how both modalities can work in harmony rather than competition.

If you’ve ever wondered whether neurofeedback could strengthen your EMDR work, this episode is a rich and relatable introduction.

Resources Mentioned:

• Leigh’s course: Demystifying Neurofeedback

• Center for Dynamic Growth: CenterForDynamicGrowth.com

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We explore:

• How WeMind adapts working memory load dynamically during sets

• Why random-interval taxation may enhance reprocessing

• The shift from hardware (light bars, tappers) to integrated platforms

• Cultural differences in EMDR practice across countries

• How tech can support relational, attuned therapy rather than replace it

This episode features conversation only—the demonstration portion appears exclusively on YouTube.

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They talk candidly about what it was like to present Enactment-Focused EMDR for the first time, the energy of meeting listeners face-to-face, and their behind-the-scenes take on the polarizing buzz around EMDR 2.0. It’s part travelogue, part professional reflection, and all the reasons this work matters.

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You’ll hear:

• Why Bruce views the target as a part—and how that changes the way we conceptualize trauma work.

• How protectors vs. exiles organize around different types of energy (urge vs. disturbance).

• The emergence of Phase 2.5 / Discovery, bridging resourcing and processing.

• How art-making and active imagination safely access nonverbal, somatic memory.

• Bridger’s chapter, “A Window and a Mirror”, introducing the Somatic Integration and Processing (SIP) model for case conceptualization as an intersubjective, diversity-honoring map.

This conversation is both practical and philosophical—an invitation to deepen precision, creativity, and compassion in trauma therapy.

Preorder the book: IFS-Informed EMDR: Creative and Collaborative Approaches on Amazon

Support the show: patreon.com/thinkbeyondhealing

Trainings & consults: connectbeyondhealing.com → Trainings tab

Follow: @Notice_That_Podcast

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A five-part companion to a six-month consultation cohort for therapists, this series reimagines the Enneagram as a living mosaic across the head, heart, and gut. Grounded in the Nurtured Nature Personality Framework (NNPF), we explore how agency, bonding, and certainty shape our strategies for belonging and becoming. Each episode blends story and theory—moving from personal mistyping and “type rigidity” toward a more generous, triadic self-portrait. You’ll meet the Mosaic Discovery prompts, unpack tensions and coherence within your three centers, and end by crafting an honest self-narrative you can share with safe others. Whether you’re Enneagram-curious or clinically trained, come for language that honors complexity—and tools you can use right away.

Ideal for: therapists, coaches, and reflective humans

For more information, head over to our website.

Series arc: Agency → Bonding → Certainty → Authentic Self-Narrative

The Mosaic Enneagram reframes typology as a three-center mosaic (head/heart/gut) shaped by life in relationship. This episode sets the foundation: why single-type identity feels rigid, how “mosaics” increase nuance, and how the series will guide listeners toward an authentic self-narrative.

Episode Thesis

Personality makes the most sense when we track the interplay of agency (gut), bonding (heart), and certainty (head) across a lifetime—not as one fixed label but as a living pattern that can be named, tested, and refined in safe relationship.

Segment-by-Segment Outline

1. Welcome & Purpose of the Series

• Limited series accompanying a 6-month therapist cohort.

• Practical application over theory-heavy NNPF, but grounded in it.

1. From Pop Typology to Depth Work

• How people often meet the Enneagram (tests, pop content).

• Initial typing vs. lived complexity; why mistyping is common.

1. Personal Origin Stories

• Early encounters with the Enneagram (tests, books, Rohr lectures).

• Relational context matters: partners/teams mirror what we can’t see.

1. Limits of Single-Type Thinking

• Stress/growth paths and wings can still feel constraining.

• “Storying to fit” vs. noticing where the story doesn’t match behavior.

1. Enter the Mosaic

• Three centers = three core “vectors”:

• Agency (gut) – how we move/act/withhold action

• Bonding (heart) – how we seek/guard connection

• Certainty (head) – how we make sense/secure meaning

• Identify a dominant style in each center to form your mosaic.

1. Lived Examples of Reframing

• Reconsidering “type” after deeper relational observation.

• Why a social Five who “feels a lot” isn’t a contradiction.

• How a Nine-in-gut can steer major life decisions toward balance.

1. Honest Self-Narrative as the Goal

• Naming strategies we use vs. what’s authentic.

• Why we need safe others to see ourselves clearly.

1. What’s Next & Homework

• Complete the Mosaic Discovery prompts before Episode 2.

• Next episodes: Agency → Bonding → Certainty → Self-Narrative.

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We cover:

• The five reasons clinicians stall out after basic training—confidence gaps, time/workload, organizational barriers (including insurance/90-minute sessions), cultural & ethical considerations, and keeping skills fresh.

• How relationships, community, and consultation bridge the “I learned it” → “I can do it” gap.

• Using WeMind’s EMDR practice avatars to build real-world confidence with complex presentations.

• What agencies and group practices can do to reduce barriers (scheduling, leadership buy-in, Medicaid/EBP support).

• EMDR’s “yes-and” posture—honoring standard protocol while integrating DBT skills, somatic work, intensives, and innovations like EMDR 2.0 (Ad de Jongh & Suzy Matthijssen).

• The field’s shift toward cultural humility and anti-racist practice, and why it matters for outcomes and equity.

• An invitation to Ad & Suzy’s New Orleans training on Oct 24–25, 2025 (live + virtual) on complex trauma, dissociation, and personality disorders.

Whether you’re fresh from Part 2 or years into EMDR, this episode will help you practice with confidence, find (or build) the right community, and keep your skills both ethical and current.

Guest: Carol Miles — trainer, consultant, and host of the South Louisiana EMDR Regional Network • https://carolmiles.com

Don't forget to check out the training Carol mentioned with Ad de Jongh and Suzy Matthijssen, hosted in person in New Orleans with virtual seat options available. Head over to Carol's website for more details.

Also, if you're interested in the training Jen talked about in the intro with Sarah Butler, check out the event page here: Understanding Intensive EMDR and use the promo code BEYOND55 for 20% off!

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Recorded live at the EMDRIA conference, Bridger and Jen sit down with the developers of EMDR 2.0, Suzy Matthijssen and Ad de Jongh. Together, they explore how intensive trauma treatment, working memory taxation, and reconsolidation theory are shaping the next generation of EMDR. From four-sessions-a-day protocols to online innovations born during COVID, this conversation brings cutting-edge clinical research into dialogue with the everyday realities of client care.

Summary

In this special conference episode of Notice That, Jen and Bridger interview Suzy Matthijssen and Ad de Jongh, two of the leading voices behind EMDR 2.0. The conversation moves between history, research, and practice, offering clinicians a front-row seat to the evolution of trauma treatment.

Key Themes:

• Origins of Intensive Trauma Treatment

• Suzy and Ad describe how intensive models—four sessions a day across multiple days—emerged from working with treatment-resistant clients and evolved further during the pandemic into effective online formats.

• The Science of EMDR 2.0

• They outline three core pillars:

1. Activation – ensuring traumatic memories are fully brought into working memory.

2. Taxation – increasing working memory load through diverse tasks (eye movements, spelling, music interference, etc.) to reduce vividness and emotionality.

3. Motivation – equipping clients to actively engage in bringing memories forward rather than passively relying on the therapist.

• Reconsolidation vs. Suppression

• The guests emphasize the importance of ensuring memories are altered and reconsolidated—not avoided or suppressed. Special techniques like blind-to-therapist protocols and flash-forward work help clients stay engaged while navigating shame, fear, or anticipatory anxiety.

• Rethinking Stabilization

• EMDR 2.0 challenges the assumption that long stabilization phases are necessary. Instead, therapists are encouraged to begin trauma processing sooner while maintaining attunement and supporting clients within their window of tolerance.

• The Future of EMDR

• Suzy and Ad share their vision of expanding EMDR beyond PTSD guidelines into personality disorders, depression, and anxiety—arguing that wherever intrusive memories or imagery are at the core of symptomatology, EMDR should play a central role.

This episode highlights how EMDR 2.0 builds on the original eight-phase protocol while integrating decades of research, pointing toward a future where trauma treatment is more efficient, intensive, and broadly applied.

If you want to learn more about EMDR 2.0, head over to www.enhancingtraumatreatment.com

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We discuss:

• The difference between the standard 8-phase protocol and the many specialized variations

• Common themes across protocols, such as the three-pronged approach (past, present, future), dual attention, and externalization

• How to discern when to use a specialized protocol and when to trust your clinical creativity within the standard framework

• Why case conceptualization is more powerful than memorizing endless techniques

Whether you’re new to EMDR or a seasoned clinician, this episode will help you feel less overwhelmed by the “protocol overload” and more confident in your ability to adapt EMDR to your clients’ unique needs.

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• Summer Life & New Beginnings – From extended family time and outdoor writing sessions to the surprise timing of Willa Jean’s birth during an EMDR basic training, they share stories that set the tone for a season of growth and transition.

• Book Development – They offer a behind-the-scenes look at their collaborative process for The Relational Thread, including how they balance poetic relational writing with research-driven legitimacy, structure chapters, and aim to make dense concepts approachable for any clinician.

• Enactment-Focused EMDR – A preview of their upcoming EMDRIA conference presentation, exploring how enactments reveal the “space between” attachment wounds and why modifying EMDR protocol to center relational dynamics can deepen healing. They outline the theory, the three-layered strategy framework, and the role of the therapeutic relationship as both a mirror and a practice ground for change.

• Bringing it All Together – Both the book and the EF-EMDR protocol grow from the same root: a commitment to address the gaps in EMDR literature, elevate the role of relationship, and invite clinicians into creative, responsive work that goes beyond scripts.

Listeners will leave with a richer understanding of enactments, practical insight into relationally informed EMDR, and a peek at what’s to come in their training and writing projects.

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